Category Archives: Herd Immunity

Fauci on coronavirus: ‘I don’t really see us eradicating it’

Posted on by • Posted in 2020 Election Issues, Asymptomatic Transmission, Clinical Testing, Contact Tracing, Coronavirus, Credibility, Crisis, Crisis Management, Evidence-based Leadership, Evidence-Based Plan, Evidence-Based Policy, Health Policy, Herd Immunity, Honesty, Infection Control, Infection Control Plan, Infectious Virus, Integrity, Mortality, National Strategy, Pandemic, Public Health, Public Safety, Quarantine, Social Distancing, Trust, Truth, Vaccine • Leave a comment

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-health/508530-fauci-on-coronavirus-i-dont-really-see-us-eradicating?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Issue:%202020-07-23%20Healthcare%20Dive%20%5Bissue:28659%5D&utm_term=Healthcare%20Dive

Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious diseases expert, said Wednesday he doesn’t think COVID-19 will ever be fully eradicated but noted it can be controlled.

“I don’t see this disappearing the way SARS 1 did,” Fauci said during a livestreamed event hosted by the TB Alliance, a nonprofit focused on finding better tuberculosis treatments.

The SARS outbreak that started in 2003 lasted several months and mostly affected Asian countries before eventually vanishing. But in the process the disease sickened more than 8,000 people in 29 countries and claimed 774 lives.

Because COVID-19 is more contagious, it has had a far greater impact, with more than 15 million cases worldwide, including 618,000 deaths.

“It is so efficient in its ability to transmit from human to human that I think we ultimately will get control of it. I don’t really see us eradicating it,” Fauci said.

President Trump has repeatedly said the virus will eventually disappear, even though that is rare for most infectious diseases.

Fauci, who is a member of the White House coronavirus task force, recently responded to Trump’s characterization of him as “a little bit of an alarmist” on the pandemic by saying he prefers to think of himself as “a realist.”

During Wednesday’s interview, Fauci described ways that the U.S. can get the coronavirus under control.

“I think with a good combination of good public health measures, a degree of global herd immunity and a good vaccine, which I do hope and feel cautiously optimistic we will get, I think when you put all three of those together we will get very good control of this. Whether it’s this year or next year, I’m not certain,” he added.

“We’ll bring it down to such a low level that we will not be in the position we are right now for an extended period of time.”

 

 

 

5 COVID-19 myths politicians have repeated that just aren’t true

Posted on by • Posted in 2020 Election Issues, Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC), Coronavirus, Evidence-based Leadership, Evidence-Based Plan, Evidence-Based Policy, False Hope, False Narrative, Herd Immunity, Misinformation, Misinterpret, Mislead, Misleading, Mistrust, Mixed Message, Pandemic, Partisanship, Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), Public Health, Public Safety, Quarantine, Social Distancing, Transparency, Trust, Truth, Wishful Thinking • Leave a comment

https://theconversation.com/5-covid-19-myths-politicians-have-repeated-that-just-arent-true-141972

5 COVID-19 myths politicians have repeated that just aren't true ...

The number of new COVID-19 cases in the U.S. has jumped to around 50,000 a day, and the virus has killed more than 130,000 Americans. Yet, I still hear myths about the infection that has created the worst public health crisis in America in a century.

The purveyors of these myths, including politicians who have been soft peddling the impact of the coronavirus, aren’t doing the country any favors.

Here are five myths I hear as director of health policy at the University of Southern California’s Schaeffer Center that I would like to put to rest.

Myth: COVID-19 is not much worse than the flu

President Donald Trump and plenty of pundits predicted early on that COVID-19 would prove no more lethal than a bad flu. Some used that claim to argue that stay-at-home orders and government-imposed lockdowns were un-American and a gross overreaction that would cost more lives than they saved.

By the end of June, however, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention announced that national antibody testing indicated 5% to 8% of Americans had already been infected with the virus. With over 130,000 confirmed COVID-19-related deaths – and that’s likely an undercount – the case fatality rate is around 0.49% to 0.78% or about four to eight times that of the flu.

Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro, who also downplayed COVID-19 as the death toll grew, calling it a “little flu,” announced on July 7 that he had tested positive for the coronavirus.

5 COVID-19 myths politicians have repeated that just aren't true

 

Myth: Cases are increasing because testing is increasing

At one point, the idea that COVID-19 case numbers were high because of an increase in testing made intuitive sense, especially in the early stages of the pandemic when people showing up for tests were overwhelmingly showing symptoms of possible infection. More testing meant health officials were aware of more illnesses that would have otherwise gone under the radar. And testing predominately sick and symptomatic people can result in an overestimate of its virulence.

Now, with millions of tests conducted and fewer than 10% coming back positive, the U.S. knows what it is facing. Testing today is essential to finding the people who are infected and getting them isolated.

Unfortunately, Trump has been a leading purveyor of the myth that we test too much. Fortunately, his medical advisers disagree.

Myth: Lockdowns were unnecessary

Given the current spike in infections after reopening the economy, more people are arguing that the lockdowns were unsuccessful in crushing the virus and shouldn’t have been implemented at all. But what would the country look like today if state governments had tried to build herd immunity by letting the disease spread rather than promoting social distancing, prohibiting large gatherings and telling the elderly to stay home?

Most epidemiologists who study pandemics believe that reaching herd immunity could only be achieved at enormous cost in terms of illness and death. About 60% or 70% of Americans would have to become infected before the spread of the virus diminished. That would result in 1 to 2 million U.S. deaths and 5 to 10 million hospitalizations.

These are horrific, yet conservative estimates, given that mortality rates would surely rise if that many people were infected and hospitals were overrun.

5 COVID-19 myths politicians have repeated that just aren't true

Myth: The epidemiological models are always wrong

It is not surprising that many people are confused by the proliferation of predictions about the course of the virus. How many people become infected depends on how individuals, governments and institutions respond, which is hard to predict.

Faced with the warning early in the pandemic that 1 to 2 million Americans could die if the U.S. simply let the coronavirus run its course, federal and state governments imposed restrictions to constrain the spread of the virus. Then, they relaxed those restrictions as new cases ebbed and pressure mounted to reopen the economy.

Now, they must consider reimposing some of those restrictions as infection rates rise in a majority of states, including Texas, Arizona, Florida and California. The models were based on data and assumptions at that time, and likely influenced responses which in turn changed underlying conditions. For example, new cases of COVID-19 are rising in the U.S., while fatalities are falling. This reflects a shift in infection rates toward younger populations, as well as improved treatment as providers learn more about the virus.

Just like an investment disclaimer that past returns do not guarantee future performance, modeling a pandemic should be seen as suggestive of what might happen given current information and not a law of nature.

Myth: It’s a second wave

Sadly, the myth here is that we have contained the virus enough to buy time to prepare for a second wave. In fact, the first wave just keeps getting bigger.

A second wave would require a trough in the first wave, but there is little evidence of that from either an epidemiologic or economic perspective.

5 COVID-19 myths politicians have repeated that just aren't true

During the 1918-1919 flu pandemic, the weekly UK death toll from influenza and pneumonia, shown here, reflected three clear waves. Taubenberger JK, Morens DM. 1918 Influenza: the Mother of All Pandemics. Emerg Infect Dis. 2006;12(1)

The U.S. recorded a record number of new cases during the first week of July, exceeding 50,000 per day for four straight days. The rising number of cases led several states to halt or roll back their reopening plans in hopes of stemming the spread of the virus.

Meanwhile, most consumers are reticent to return to “normal” economic activity: Fewer than one-third of adults surveyed by Morning Consult in early July were comfortable going to a shopping mall. Only 35% were comfortable going out to eat, and 18% were comfortable going to the gym. For almost half of the population, an effective treatment or vaccine may be the only way they will feel comfortable returning to “normal” economic activity.

COVID-19 is an immediate threat that requires a unified, science-based response from governments and citizens to be successful. But it is also an opportunity to rethink how we prepare for future pandemics. Some misinformation is inevitable as a new virus emerges, but perpetuating myths for political or other reasons ultimately costs lives.

 

 

Our new default coronavirus strategy: herd immunity

Posted on by • Posted in 2020 Election Issues, Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC), Clinical Testing, Contact Tracing, Coronavirus, Crisis, Crisis Management, Economic Crisis, Economy Reopening, Evidence-based Leadership, Evidence-Based Plan, Evidence-Based Policy, False Hope, False Narrative, Herd Immunity, Infection Control, Infection Control Plan, Infectious Virus, Mislead, Misleading, Mortality, National Strategy, Pandemic, Public Health, Public Safety, Quarantine, Scientists, Social Distancing, Vulnerable Populations • Leave a comment

https://www.axios.com/newsletters/axios-vitals-8f089110-bdd3-440e-9f8a-d8e431e2e18e.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosvitals&stream=top

The U.S.'s new default coronavirus strategy: herd immunity - Axios

By letting the coronavirus surge through the population with only minimal social distancing measures in place, the U.S. has accidentally become the world’s largest experiment in herd immunity.

Why it matters: Letting the virus spread while minimizing human loss is doable, in theory. But it requires very strict protections for vulnerable people, almost none of which the U.S. has established.

The big picture: Cases are skyrocketing, with hospitalizations and deaths following suit in hotspots. Not a single state has ordered another lockdown, even though per capita cases in Florida and Arizona have reached levels similar to New York and New Jersey’s in April.

  • Most states never built up the testing, contact tracing and isolation systems it would take to prevent the virus from spreading widely.
  • The Trump administration is generally ignoring or downplaying soaring caseloads across the South and West, and is pushing schools to fully reopen in the fall.
  • In Florida, where infections, hospitalizations and deaths are surging, Gov. Ron DeSantis “has repeatedly ruled out a sweeping mask mandate or taking the state back into a lockdown to stem the virus, although local governments have acted on their own,” per Bloomberg.

Between the lines: Separating older, sicker people from younger, healthier ones while the virus burns through the latter group could be a way to achieve herd immunity — assuming immunity exists — without hundreds of thousands of people dying.

  • But the U.S. hasn’t adopted such a strategy with any planning or foresight. Although younger people make up a larger portion of coronavirus cases now than they did earlier in the pandemic, vulnerable people still go to work or live with non-vulnerable people.

Yes, but: Some cities and states, particularly in the Northeast, are focused on containing the virus rather than living with it.

 

 

 

 

Reopening the U.S. Economy

Posted on by • Posted in 2020 Election Issues, Antibodies, Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC), Clinical Research, Clinical Testing, Contact Tracing, Coronavirus, Crisis, Crisis Management, Disease Outbreaks, Disease Resurgence, Economic Crisis, Economic Recovery, Economy, Economy Reopening, Health Policy, Herd Immunity, Infection Control, Infectious Virus, Mortality, Pandemic, Public Health, Public Safety, Quarantine, Social Distancing, Vaccination, Vaccine • Leave a comment

https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/pages/reopening-the-us-economy.html

Click to access report.pdf

Allison Nathan, senior strategist for Goldman Sachs Research, discusses her latest Top of Mind report where she speaks with leading experts across health and policy to understand how well-positioned the U.S. is to achieve a safe reopening of the economy and how quickly it would translate into economic recovery. 

With COVID-19 mitigation measures leading to an apparent leveling off of case
growth globally at the same time that the economic costs of such measures continue
to mount, several countries around the world have begun to plan for—or have
already started to implement—economic reopening. But absent herd immunity or
a vaccine for the virus, such reopenings increase the risk of disease resurgence.
With this in mind, what a safe reopening might look like, how well-positioned the
US is to achieve one and how quickly reopening would really translate into economic
recovery is Top of Mind. We consult three experts on these questions: University of
Pennsylvania’s Dr. Zeke Emanuel, Duke University’s Dr. Mark McClellan and Harvard
University’s Dr. Barry Bloom. And we share our own take on a potential US recovery path, informed by lessons from
China’s reopening experience so far. Finally, with more complete economic normalization only likely with an effective
testing regime, treatments, or a widely available vaccine for COVID-19-we discuss where we are on all of the above.

 

 

 

New report says coronavirus pandemic could last for two years – and may not subside until 70% of the population has immunity

Posted on by • Posted in 2020 Election Issues, Clinical Research, Clinical Testing, Coronavirus, Crisis, Crisis Management, Health Policy, Herd Immunity, Infection Control, Infectious Virus, Mortality, Pandemic, Public Health, Public Safety, Quarantine, Social Distancing, Vaccination, Vaccine • Leave a comment

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-pandemic-update-two-years-70-percent-immunity/

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Recovery Depends on Herd Immunity, Doctor Says

As coronavirus restrictions around the world are being lifted, a new report warns the pandemic that has already killed more than 230,000 people likely won’t be contained for two years. The modeling study from the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP) at the University of Minnesota also says that about 70% of people need to be immune in order to bring the virus to a halt.

For the study, experts looked at eight major influenza pandemics dating back to the 1700s, as well as data about the new coronavirus, to help forecast how COVID-19 may spread over the coming months and years. Out of the eight past flu pandemics, scientists said seven had a second substantial peak about six months after the first one. Additionally, some had “smaller waves of cases over the course of 2 years” after the initial outbreak.

A key factor in their prediction for the current pandemic revolves around herd immunity, which refers to the community-wide resistance to the spread of a contagious disease that results when a high percentage of people are immune to it, either through vaccination or prior exposure. 

“The length of the pandemic will likely be 18 to 24 months, as herd immunity gradually develops in the human population,” the report says. “Given the transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2” — the virus that causes COVID-19 — “60% to 70% of the population may need to be immune to reach a critical threshold of herd immunity to halt the pandemic.”

It will take time to reach that point, since data from blood tests show only a small fraction of the overall population has been infected so far, and a possible vaccine is still months if not a year or more away. It is not yet clear whether people who’ve recovered from the infection will be immune or how long such protection would last.

The report lays out several possible scenarios, including one in which a larger wave of illnesses may happen in the fall or winter of 2020 and then subsequent smaller waves in 2021. The researchers say this model — similar to the pattern seen in the devastating 1918 Spanish flu pandemic — would “require the reinstitution of mitigation measures in the fall in an attempt to drive down spread of infection and prevent healthcare systems from being overwhelmed.” 

Two other scenarios in the report involve either recurring peaks and valleys of outbreaks, or smaller waves of illness over the next two years.

In any case, the researchers said people must be prepared for “at least another 18 to 24 months of significant COVID-19 activity, with hot spots popping up periodically” in different geographic areas.

As the virus continues to circulate among the human population and outbreaks finally start to wane, they say it will likely “synchronize to a seasonal pattern with diminished severity over time.”

 

 

 

In worst-case scenario, COVID-19 coronavirus could cost the U.S. billions in medical expenses

Posted on by • Posted in Cash, Cash Reserves, Cash-Flow Improvements, Coronavirus, Crisis, Crisis Management, Economic Crisis, Elective Procedures, Elective Surgery, Health Policy, Health System, Herd Immunity, Hospital, Hospital Bed Shortage, Hospital Industry, Intensive Care (ICU), Net Income, Operating Expenses, Operating Income, Operating Margin, Operating Performance, Operating Revenue, Pandemic, Ventilators • Leave a comment

https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/node/140021?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTVdVNE16UmpZMkUzWlRnNCIsInQiOiJtcG1Tc29ZQVREZmlnTG9mSVFXams4K3pwYW1oRGh6b0xVekZnRlFKUUlNN2l4a3loWjBlZXZ0cm1UZFBYeTd1c1NkR2ZsdnI2aW5ZQVV0VlIrZHZPOFlkNFl4UDNsNTFBTmFXMzBhYVFnYUgyMjlYTHNzS3JuK09GTXo4UFVKQyJ9

In worst-case scenario, COVID-19 coronavirus could cost the U.S. ...

If 20% of the US population were to become infected with COVID-19, it would result in an average of $163.4 billion in direct medical costs.

One of the major concerns about the COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic has been the burden that cases will place on the healthcare system. A new study published April 23 in the journal Health Affairs found that the spread of the virus could cost hundreds of billions of dollars in direct medical expenses alone and require resources such as hospital beds and ventilators that may exceed what is currently available.

The findings demonstrate how these costs and resources can be cut substantially if the spread of COVID-19 coronavirus can be reduced to different degrees.

The study was led by the Public Health Informatics, Computational and Operations Research team at the City University of New York Graduate School of Public Health and Health Policy, along with the Infectious Disease Clinical Outcomes Research Unit at the Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center and Torrance Memorial Medical Center.

The team developed a computer simulation model of the entire U.S. that could then simulate what would happen if different proportions of the population end up getting infected with the COVID-19 coronavirus. In the model, each infected person would develop different symptoms over time and, depending upon the severity of those symptoms, visit clinics, emergency departments or hospitals.

The resources each patient would require – such as healthcare personnel time, medication, hospital beds and ventilators – would then be based on the health status of each patient. The model then tracks the resources involved, the associated costs and the outcomes for each patient.

For example, if 20% of the U.S. population were to become infected with the COVID-19 coronavirus, there would be an average of 11.2 million hospitalizations and 1.6 million ventilators used, costing an average of $163.4 billion in direct medical costs during the course of the infection.

The study shows the factors that could push this amount up to 13.4 million hospitalizations and 2.3 million ventilators used, costing an average of $214.5 billion. If 50% of the U.S. population were to get infected with COVID-19, there would be 27.9 million hospitalizations, 4.1 million ventilators used and 156.2 million hospital bed days accrued, costing an average of $408.8 billion in direct medical costs during the course of the infection.

This increases to 44.6 million hospitalizations, 6.5 million ventilators used and 249.5 million hospital bed days (general ward plus ICU bed days) incurred, costing an average of $654 billion during the course of the infection if 80% of the U.S. population were to get infected. The significant difference in medical costs when various proportions of the population get infected show the value of any strategies that could reduce infections and, conversely, the potential cost of simply letting the virus run its course – the “herd immunity” approach.

Simply put, allowing people to get infected until herd immunity thresholds are met would come at a tremendous cost, and even if social-distancing measures were relaxed and the country “opened up” too early, the healthcare system, as well as the broader economy, would come close to buckling under the weight of the additional costs.

WHAT’S THE IMPACT?

The study shows how costly the coronavirus is compared to other common infectious diseases. For example, a single symptomatic COVID-19 infection costs an average of $3,045 in direct medical costs during the course of the infection alone. This is four times higher than a symptomatic influenza case and 5.5 times higher than a symptomatic pertussis case. Factoring in the costs from longer lasting effects of the infection such as lung damage and other organ damage increased the average cost to $3,994.

Importantly, for a sizable proportion of those who get infected, healthcare costs don’t end when the active infection ends, and costs will likely stay high even after the bulk of the pandemic has passed.

A continuing concern is that the U.S. healthcare system will become overloaded with the surge of COVID-19 coronavirus cases and will subsequently not have enough person-power, ventilators and hospital beds to accommodate the influx of patients. The study shows that even when only 20% of the population gets infected, the current number of available ventilators and ICU beds will not be sufficient.

According to the Society of Critical Care Medicine, there are approximately 96,596 ICU beds and 62,000 full-featured mechanical ventilators in the U.S., substantially lower than what would be needed when only 20% of the population gets infected.

THE LARGER TREND

Data released this week by Kaufman Hall illustrates the extent to which U.S. hospitals are already suffering financially due to the coronavirus.

Looking at earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization, hospitals’ operating margins fell more than 100% in March, dropping a full 13 percentage points relative to last year. Compared to most months, that’s a much greater change. Operating EBITDA margin was up just 1% in March 2019, for example, and down 1% in February of this year.

These margins likely fell even further across broader health systems, which often include substantial physician and ambulatory operations outside of the hospital, Kaufman Hall found. Overall, operating margins fell 170% below budget for the month.

 

 

 

Melinda Gates: This is not a once-in-a-century pandemic.

Posted on by • Posted in 2020 Election Issues, Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC), Clinical Research Funding, Clinical Testing, Clinical Trial Recruitment, Clinical Trials, Communication, Coronavirus, Crisis, Crisis Management, Emergency Preparedness, Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Health Policy, Herd Immunity, Infection Control, Infectious Virus, Intensive Care (ICU), Leadership, Leadership Cares, Leadership Trust, Mortality, National Strategy, Pandemic, Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), Public Health, Public Safety, Quarantine, Social Distancing, Vaccination, Vaccine • Leave a comment

https://www.businessinsider.com/melinda-gates-coronavirus-interview-vaccine-timeline-2020-4?linkId=87026774

Melinda Gates

‘We will absolutely have more of these.’ The billionaire philanthropist predicts a timeline for going back to normal.

  • Business Insider spoke with Melinda Gates about COVID-19, the prospect and timeline of making an effective vaccine, and how the world will be permanently changed by the coronavirus.
  • Gates said it would likely take about 18 months for a vaccine to become widely available, and that it should first go to healthcare workers to help them keep others safe.
  • She said this pandemic was not a once-in-a-century situation, like the Spanish flu. Because the world is now a global community, we’re likely to see other pandemics in our lifetimes, Gates said.
  • Even after things get back to normal, “our psyches are going to permanently changed … I hope we change to realize that we’re a global community.”

Melinda Gates is the cochair of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, which has donated more than $45 billion to tackle some of the world’s toughest problems, including vaccination research and combating pandemics, from coronavirus to Ebola.

Gates and her husband have long been concerned about a pandemic and have warned that we need to be more prepared at a global level.

In a wide-ranging interview with Gates on Thursday afternoon, she gave her thoughts on the coronavirus pandemic, the inequality of it all, and how the world can go back to semi-normal. The highlights:

  • The world needs a vaccine delivered at mass scale to go back to “normal.” A realistic timeline is about 18 months, the same time it took to create an Ebola vaccine.
  • It is possible we won’t be able to find an effective vaccine for coronavirus, although Gates thinks that is highly unlikely.
  • The idea of herd immunity solving coronavirus is far-fetched. Gates said that would require more than half the population to get coronavirus (which isn’t anywhere close to happening) and a lot of death along the way.
  • To effectively roll out a vaccine, Gates believes you need to first give it to health workers, then to high-risk groups, then distribute it equitably to different countries and communities. The vaccine also has to cost very little with a fund to cover it for everyone. What the US is doing right now, pitting states against each other for supplies and allowing wealthy individuals to access tests first, would be disastrous for a vaccine rollout.
  • To prepare for the second wave of coronavirus this fall, or even a next pandemic, we need mass testing from the get-go, voluntary data sharing from people so that we can trace who has been tested and where they have been, and vaccine stockpiles so that you can distribute those as soon as you see signs of an outbreak.
  • Gates said there would “absolutely” be more pandemics in our lifetime. Coronavirus is not a once-in-a-century occurrence like the Spanish flu.
  • If you want to help vulnerable, poor communities survive coronavirus, Gates recommends giving to the WHO COVID Solidarity Fund, United Way, or America’s Food Fund.

We need a vaccine to be widely distributed before the world will start to feel normal again. Gates says we won’t get that for at least 18 months.

Alyson Shontell: How is it going in the Gates household?

Melinda Gates: Like all other families, it’s been a complete change of life for all of us. But we are also incredibly privileged, and we know that, and our kids know that. But yes, life has changed drastically. The kids are studying online. Bill and I are doing all of our meetings via video teleconference. I’m a terrible cook, so I’m heating things up a lot more, and everybody’s trying to pitch in to do what needs to get done in terms of things around the house.

And the other thing I would just say is every night, we’ve had this tradition for a long time of saying grace before meals. And what that looks like is that we all go around and say something we’re thankful for. Pretty much every night what comes up from the kids and us is we’re thankful for our health and for the fact that we’re not going hungry and the fact that we can still do our work and the kids can still learn. It’s kind of amazing.

Shontell: We heard Dr. Fauci say earlier this week that things probably won’t return to normal until we have a vaccine. What do you think is a realistic timeline for a wide distribution of a vaccine? Is anything faster than 18 months really safe?

Gates: I think it’s likely 18 months. Just from everything we know from working with our partners for many, many years on vaccines, you have to test the compounds. Then, you have to go into preclinical trials, then full-scale trials. And even though I’m sure the FDA will fast-track some of these vaccine trials like they did with Ebola, still by the time you get it through the trials safety- and efficacy-wise, then you have to manufacture the vaccine and manufacture at scale. I think it really is 18 months.

The good news that I’m seeing on that front, though, is so many scientists are coming forward, and I’m seeing CEOs come forward and say, “I have this platform we can use.” Pharmaceutical companies are coming together already to say, “How do we build up the manufacturing capacity so it’s there when we get a vaccine and we can basically just run it through the manufacturing process?” I’m seeing lots of good things come forward, but it’s a process that needs to run its full course, because you don’t want to put something in someone’s body that is harmful.

Shontell: Right. It seems like, in addition to creating something we’ve never had before, you do really have to do these human tests in a way that’s safe so that you’re not creating a vaccine that maybe cures coronavirus but gives you something else.

Gates: I’d add also that we need to know who it’s safe to give the vaccine to and in what dosages. We know COVID-19 is affecting people who are particularly vulnerable health-wise if they have diabetes, or a heart condition, or they have asthma. You have to make sure that, safety-wise, you’re not giving somebody a vaccine that’s going to affect their heart. So yeah, there are lots of issues there that have to be tested.

It’s possible we won’t be able to create a coronavirus vaccine, although Gates thinks that’s highly unlikely. Also, herd immunity is not the solution.

Shontell: If at the end of this 18-month period, or however long it is, we do feel like we’ve got a vaccine, what do you think that vaccine will actually look like? Is it possible that we actually won’t be able to create a vaccine at all? Could that be one scenario?

Gates: Well, it’s possible. We have to look at how far science has come even in the last five years. And the number of compounds we have, there’s something like 14,000 compounds that we, with our partners alone, have. And there are many, many, many others testing compounds that we’re looking at to see, “Is this promising?” Could that one be promising? And we have high throughput screening now of compounds. I really think we’re going to find a vaccine.

We found a vaccine for Ebola, right? And we did that in about an 18-month time frame, and that was hard. When I see the scientific community all coming together the way they are around the globe and sharing data and sharing information, we’re going to get a vaccine.

Shontell: OK, so you’d say that it’s a high likelihood.

Gates: High likelihood.

Shontell: That’s very, very good to know.

Gates: The other thing to think about is, in the meantime, there’s another whole strand of work going on, which is the therapeutics accelerator. Through the accelerator, we’re trying to find medicines so that if you get COVID-19, hopefully we can boost your immune system or tamp down the effect of the disease on you. So again, hopefully, we’ll come up with some medicines that will also help so people don’t get as sick as they’re getting and landing in the ICU, which is what’s truly tragic.

Shontell: Is there anything to this idea of herd immunity? Could we be closer than we think on that, or is that far-fetched thinking?

Gates: That’s still very far-fetched today. You don’t get herd immunity until you have a huge percent of your population that has had the disease. We know that from all the diseases in the past that humans have had. So no, we’re still a long way from herd immunity. And you can’t count on that because a lot of people are going to die in the meantime if you let the experiment run and you just let the disease run its course in communities. Sure, we could get herd immunity and we will get so much death. That’s why it’s so important to remind people the only tools we have today are physical distancing, handwashing, and wearing masks in public. We have to go with what we know works.

How to distribute a coronavirus vaccine to the masses: 1. Make it cheap and buy it for everyone. 2. Give it to healthcare workers. 3. Give it to the highest-risk people. 4. Come up with an equitable way for everyone else to get it (the US is screwing that up right now).

Shontell: Once we have a vaccine, what do you think is the best way to distribute it to the masses? Who should get it first? How would we do it on such a big scale?

Gates: We have to make sure that the vaccine is very low priced and that there’s a fund for buying it for everyone, whether you’re in a low-, middle-, or a high-income country. And that’s doable. We’ve done that with the Vaccine Alliance that exists today. That’s been in existence since 1990, so we know how to do that piece.

But we also have to distribute very carefully. The very first people that need to get this vaccine are healthcare workers, because if you can keep them safe, they can help keep others safe. Then you need to distribute it to the people who are the very most vulnerable. That is, they have underlying health conditions, some of the ones that we’ve talked about before. And from there, you then make it distributed completely equitably across society.

And even the United States is going to have to really work at that. COVID-19 is exposing all the inequities we have in our healthcare system. And so we need to look at, OK, does Mississippi get this vaccine at the same time California gets it and New York gets it? We can’t do this game that we’re playing right now where you have 50 different states competing for resources for masks and PPE, that makes zero sense. You need a national strategy that will equitably distribute this vaccine and we first look at the vulnerable populations.

Shontell: To touch on that point, as you mentioned, there are so many inequalities coming to light with this pandemic, from who has been able to get initial testing on to how it’s affecting different genders in different ways, to more African Americans in the US dying of this than other races. When you think about it, social distancing, stocking up on food, and handwashing are all privileges that some of the poorest communities don’t have.

You’ve done a lot of work on equality efforts, and you’ve said it’s the best way to fix everything in society is to level the playing field. How do we start leveling the playing field so the next time it’s better for everybody? How do we help the people who are in the poorest, most vulnerable communities right now?

Gates: We have to start by remembering that COVID-19 anywhere is COVID-19 everywhere. And if we keep that front and center in our minds, then we will start to think really deeply about these most vulnerable populations.

The thing that keeps me up at night — because I’ve traveled to Africa so many times and been in so many townships and slums — is if you are a person living in those conditions, you can’t begin to handwashing or social distance. In those situations, we need to start with food. People need to be able to feed themselves. And then if they feel like they have COVID symptoms, then they don’t have to go out of the house looking for food.

When I think forward about how we would do this, right now, we have to focus on the pandemic today right in front of us. We have to take the tools we have and try and distribute them as equitably as we possibly can. That means a national response that is thought out and strategic. So you start there.

When you plan for the future, you start to plan it out the way we did for other diseases that came into the world. You would create a vaccine stockpile. We’ve actually been quite involved with that for cholera, which we don’t get much in the United States anymore, but you get in a lot of places in the developing world or in refugee camps. And when there’s a stockpile of vaccine, then when you see an outbreak or a vulnerable population get it, it’s already basically paid for and you ship the vaccines out.

We have to have not a national stockpile of vaccines but an international stockpile of vaccines for something like COVID. We can predict some of these types of disease outbreaks; we just haven’t been planning it. We plan for things like an earthquake or a fire. We need to plan for disease. We are a global community. People travel. We’ve just learned that New York mostly got infected from people coming back from Europe. We have to plan for these things as a global community in the future.

How to be ready for the 2nd wave to hit this fall: Are you ready to give up your personal data and get tracked?

Shontell: Clearly, we were caught flat-footed and unprepared here in the US especially. There’s talk of a second wave of coronavirus potentially hitting in the fall. What are the things we need to do to plan for it? What has to be done by the end of the summer to put us all in a much better shape for it? And then I’m curious what we need to have in place to prevent something like this moving forward, if that’s even possible.

Gates: In terms of what we need to do to prepare ourselves this fall, first of all, all the way through this, we need to listen to the medical experts and the science experts. They know what’s real. We need to do the disease modeling to see where the outbreaks are going. We need to plan resources appropriately and share them in the United States with all the states in an equitable way.

And then we need to do massive testing. We have to have testing at wide scale so that you can get a test and you can know if you’re positive. And if you’re positive, then you self-isolate. Unless you get further disease, you then get telemedicine. You figure out if you need to go to the health system. And you have different tiers of the health system, places people can go for oxygen versus people who go to the ICU.

We can do that, kind of. You can do that triage of people if you have a test. To be frank, we also need to be able to share all that testing data so that eventually the US would be a place like South Korea, where I can literally prove on my phone “I took a test this morning — I’m COVID-free” or “Guess what? I had COVID before and I tested for antibodies in my system. I can be out in society working maybe now.” You could literally have a code on your phone that says, “Tested this morning” or “See? I have a COVID antibody.”

And so we can start to see who can be in society versus who needs to self-isolate. But without testing and contact tracing and some way of being able to prove to one another we’re safe, you can’t plan for a full eventual reopening of society. We need to do get that up and running at scale at a national level.

Preparing for the next epidemic is a whole different conversation. You’d have tests available from the get-go. You would have fought through the civil-liberties issues of people sharing their health information willingly or not willingly. Am I willing to share my health data so that you know if I got it?

Early on, people with COVID had symptoms we didn’t know to track. If we had known that from the get-go because they were able to share their information into a national database voluntarily, we would have known to tell people, “Look for these symptoms. Self-isolate just in case you have it.” We have to be able to start thinking through those types of systems as a country so that we’re prepared for whatever comes next.

Whose job is it to solve a pandemic, the elite’s or the government’s?

Shontell: Yes to all of that. Edelman put out on their annual Trust Barometer in January. They found that trust in media is really low right now. Trust in the government is really low too. But trust in business leaders is the highest group, and people seem to put the most faith in business leaders to solve some of society’s biggest problems.

You and Bill have done a tremendous amount with the foundation. You’re seeing Mark Zuckerberg giving a ton of money toward this. Sheryl Sandberg is doing the same. Jack Dorsey just pledged a big chunk of net worth to help fight COVID. Lots of people are stepping up. Bezos as well.

Is it the responsibility of business leaders to do this versus the government? Is this something we should come to expect? How do you kind of view the responsibility of the people who are in positions of the most privilege as we tackle something as wide-scale is this?

Gates: What I’m seeing is people stepping up. I sometimes wish people could see the number of emails we’re receiving daily at the foundation, not just Bill and me, but our scientists and our head of global health. We’re seeing CEOs come forward. We’re seeing philanthropists come forward. We’re seeing people who have knowledge and data saying, “Should we look at this? What should we do?” I am seeing the best of humanity come out right now in some of these leaders who are stepping forward and doing the right thing.

“Is this the responsibility of business?” was your question. It’s the responsibility of all of us. Business won’t be able to solve this. There’s no way business or philanthropy can solve this alone. It takes the government. It’s government who puts out huge amounts of money into our healthcare system to take care of everybody, to take care of the most vulnerable. It’s philanthropy and business and nonprofits coming together with government to have a national response. That is the only way we’re going to be able to care for all Americans.

But what I see is amazing scientists like Dr. Fauci stepping up and giving all the right messages. Those are the people we should be listening to, and I am seeing so many people come together behind the scenes to try and do the right thing. While the vulnerable is what keeps me up at night, one of the things that keeps me encouraged when I wake up in the morning is seeing so many people doing the right thing.

This is not just a once-in-a-century pandemic. ‘We are absolutely going to have more of these.’

Shontell: Is this a once-in-a-century pandemic like the Spanish flu, or do we need to expect to face more pandemics like this moving forward?

Gates: This is not a once-in-a-century pandemic. We are absolutely going to have more of these. This thing is highly infectious, COVID-19. But it is not nearly as infectious as measles. And we dealt with measles in the world. We know how to deal with measles. We’re going to see more, so we need to plan for them. And we haven’t planned for them as a global community.

Shontell: Why do you think we’ll see more pandemics?

Gates: We’ll see more because of all kinds of reasons, but mainly because we’re a global community and we travel and we spread disease.

Alyson: To end on a positive note, we are going to get through this, right? It will be hard, but we will get through this. I’m curious from your estimation: What timeline are we looking at for life to feel normal again? Or are we in a new normal, and are there things that we should expect to be permanently changed?

No one really knows when things will feel normal again. But be prepared for some permanent changes, including to your psyche.

Gates: I definitely think there are going to be things that are permanently changed. Our psyches are going to be permanently changed. We are learning some things about how to do more meetings online. We’re learning how to take care of each other online. People are reaching out to the elderly in their homes and doing video calls and sending emails or dropping a meal off. What’s going to change is our psyche, and I hope we change to realize that we’re a global community.

To the question of when does society reopen in what we think of as our normal form, nobody really knows the answer to that. It really is when we get a vaccine at scale.

Will we get, over time, probably some partial reopenings of society where you can do certain smaller group things or be out walking with one friend or two friends? I think we will start to see some partial reopenings.

We have to follow the data, though, of how is that working in Wuhan right now? How did it work in South Korea? How does it work in Germany? The places that are kind of ahead of us on both their response and when they got the disease? And then, we’ll start to be able to see, OK, where can we open up pockets of society over time? For right now, we need to be physically distant from one another.

Shontell: If the average person wants to give to help a vulnerable person or community, what’s the best way to do that other than social distancing? Is there some cause to give to or something that’s most helpful?

Gates: Yes. You could go globally. You could go to the WHO COVID Solidarity Fund. Locally, you could go to United Way. America’s Food Fund is another place you can go. I would give also to local domestic-violence organizations. We see domestic violence on the rise for many, many people, particularly women. Any of those would be amazing places to go and to give, even if you only give $10 — $10 or $100, it all makes a difference.

Shontell: I’m leaving this conversation very hopeful. Thank you for all efforts you and Bill and the foundation are doing in helping fight this. You were early to realizing the problems of pandemics, and we are grateful that you’re on it.

Gates: Thanks, Alyson. Be safe. Be well.